Jean interviews Minal Bopaiah, author of Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives. She has much to say about the long and complicated path for DEI.
Jean Latting (author of Amazon best-seller Conscious Change) interviews Minal Bopaiah
Jean 0:11
Introduces Minal Bopaiah, author of Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives.
Jean 2:19
Explain equity vs equality.
Minal 2:33
Equality is about giving everybody the same thing. Equity is about giving people the resources they need according to their differences, so they can participate fully.
Jean 5:01
What keeps us from achieving equity?
Minal 5:58
The system of oppression that I think is actually the most entrenched is ableism. We are still at a point in time where certain diagnoses – particularly a mental health diagnosis – can justify imprisonment, or make people think that that person should be in prison.
You have to be very intentional about scoping jobs and being clear what are qualifications versus what are preferences.
You have to get very clear about what are the things that can be accommodated that don't affect the quality of services that are being delivered, and what are the things that really are disqualifying.
Jean 11:21
Three obstacles to talking about systemic racism. First, the progress and personalization narrative.
Minal 11:47
We've made some progress but there are still things that are entrenched in our system that have nothing to do with interpersonal relations that are perpetuating systemic racism.
Jean 12:23
Why don't people see systems?
Minal 12:35
There is a deliberate attempt by people who support systems of oppression to make the system invisible. If you make it invisible, then people think that this is the natural order of the world. Not teaching it is a way to get people to comply with it.
Jean 13:44
Second, the belief in rugged individualism.
Minal 13:56
This fundamental belief that the world is neutral, and people are a product of their own hard work and that's it. We look to the hard work variable, but it's actually the system support that we need to look at. Because there are plenty of people working hard who are not rich or experiencing career success or personal success, and it's because the system is not supporting them.
Minal 15:03
Luck is a proxy for system support. Luck is another way of saying the system supports me and centers people like me.
Jean 16:59
What do you think of the phrase, bring your whole self to work?
Minal 17:08
Slogans are bad ways of teaching DEI. I think in some ways, it's a nice sentiment to have, but if your whole self happens to be racist, you can keep that part of you at home.
Minal 18:58
The world is fundamentally interdependent. No man is an island, interdependence is one of the few things that both religion and science agree on. But this belief in rugged individualism is so entrenched in our society that it really causes some damage.
Jean 21:11
Third: separate lives, separate fates narrative
Minal 21:24
We simplify it by saying things like, well, if you studied hard, you would do well in school and get a good job. But that does not take into account the history of redlining, the history of the fact that American schools are funded by property taxes, not by a general tax revenue the way most other countries do it. And so your zip code, or where your parents can afford to live, very much influences your future trajectory.
Jean 25:29
How do you help people move from seeing individuals to seeing systems?
Minal 25:44
I talk about my parents coming to this country relatively poor as Indian immigrants, then running their own private practice, buying a home, sending their kids to college debt free. It's all the trappings of the model minority myth, that we work hard and that's why we do well.
The problem with this myth is that it's fundamentally built on a systemic advantage.
What happened is that the US immigration system began to take advantage of socialized education in other countries to provide for labor needs. In India, my parents, who were relatively poor, could go to college and medical school for what was rumored like 50 bucks a semester.
Minal 30:35
If you can imagine on the y-axis is superior versus inferior, perceived superiority versus inferiority. You might have Whites at the top, Blacks at the bottom, and Asians somewhere in between.
But then there's also an axis of being an insider versus being perceived as a foreigner. Whites and Blacks are perceived as insiders, and Asians are perceived as foreigners.
Minal 33:44
This is why you need good leaders who can explain the system to people and unify people in a direction. Right now in DEI, we talk too much about what we're trying to destroy or take down, and not enough about what we're trying to build.
Good leaders have to also speak within their sphere of control, if you are running a nonprofit with 250 people, you're not going to end systemic racism. You have to present a vision that is attainable for the size of your organization with the resources you have.
Minal 36:09
It's a team effort, it's not just me.
Helping both leaders and staff understand their sphere of control is important. Every organization that does DEI should be able to answer the question, what problem is DEI solving?
You need to be able to articulate what is the problem that you're going to solve through a DEI initiative, and then be able to articulate that clearly enough to staff. And then after that, it is beholden upon directors and managers to be able to translate that vision into the specifics of what it means for somebody's job.
Jean 38:41
Is that at all levels up and down the organization?
Minal 38:56
The whole organization, the CEO, the C-suite, to be able to then translate that strategy into what does it mean for this department? And then each manager should be able to articulate what does it mean for each one of my direct reports?
The lack of leadership training in organizations is pretty profound, if leadership isn't trained on how to be transparent, and how to manage change, then any change you put in place will not be sustainable. If you want sustainable change, you have to go slow and start with leadership and capacity building, and leaders.
Jean 41:27
Does equity stay in the forefront?
Minal 41:38
I think right now, equity is not in the forefront, it's become a very polarized word. I think inclusion is a little bit easier to put in the forefront in the beginning.
I don't waste my breath, I wait until they're ready. Because I don't think it's a good use of my time. And I think very few leaders are that visionary
Jean 44:06
What do you want people to take away from this conversation?
Minal 44:20
DEI work is very nuanced and complex. It also requires a lot of intellectual rigor. I want people to take away that system sight is very important for understanding how we got to where we got and what to do now. This work is very nuanced, it's not easily summed up in a slogan.
Jean 45:35
What do you want people to take away about the concept of equity?
Minal 45:41
That it is vital for justice and fairness in our world, that it has to be balanced with equality, and that it will only be achieved through incremental gains, because the system is so complex that it is a process of continuous improvement.
Jean 47:00
How can people reach you?
Minal 47:04
The book Equity is available, wherever books are sold on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org. We also have a website called theequitybook.com that you can go to, and then I would invite people to sign up for our newsletter at Brevity & Wit, it's just brevityandwit.com.
 Minal Bopaiah Minal is an award-winning author, keynote speaker, and equity strategist. She founded Brevity & Wit, a strategy and design firm that helps organizations achieve the change they want to see in the world. Her first book, Equity: How to Design Organizations Where Everyone Thrives, was awarded the 2022 Terry McAdam Book Award for the book most likely to change the way nonprofit professionals work. Minal has a B.A. in English from Bowdoin College, a master’s degree in clinical psychology from Fordham University, and was formally trained in organizational development and change leadership at Georgetown University. She is an Advisory Board member for Dent Education, a nonprofit teaching entrepreneurship, design thinking and making to Baltimore high school students, and for Bring Change to Mind, the nonprofit started by the actress Glenn Close and her sister Jessie Close to end mental health stigma. |
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